Special Episode: Perspectives on Voluntourism in different contexts – challenges and way forward

00:00:14: I'm Mina and welcome to this special episode.

00:00:17: It's not part of our Change Of Perspective podcast, but the panel discussion perspectives on volunteerism in different contexts challenges and a way forward which took place on March third, two thousand twenty-sixth.

00:00:31: Our moderator Caroline Phillip and speakers Dolly Afumba Malikke-Gorstein and Lila will present themselves.

00:00:40: I will also read the question that was asked during

00:01:13: Education and Development Corporation.

00:01:16: And in this process, we also concentrated on the structures of volunteering mainly from the global north to the Global South.

00:01:25: We wrote their publication Mit Kolonialen Grüßen with colonial greetings more than ten years ago... ...and were active back then somehow also preparing volunteers for going to the global south from the global north.

00:01:43: And we also have, after this participation... After working in the structures.. We stepped away from this preparation of volunteers.

00:01:54: Only one member of Lokal who is himself from the Global South.

00:01:57: He's still helping people form the Global south to find their way here as volunteers.

00:02:08: He's still in the volunteering structures.

00:02:10: So this is for me and I'm very happy now to give them like two hour speakers.

00:02:15: They will introduce themselves.

00:02:19: We have three speakers for this evening.

00:02:21: And um, i would like you...I would ask You to introduce yourself?

00:02:27: Then say also your statement that you brought For us today.

00:02:33: Um so maybe we start alphabetically with Dolly.

00:02:39: So I'm happy to be here.

00:02:42: Thank you Caroline, thank you Josie for organizing this panel on volunteering.

00:02:49: This will the first panel that i participate where we actually question The world of foreign train and uh...I am happy To Be Here.

00:02:58: I've been at the University Of Marble I have studied there And finished my PhD.

00:03:06: Just defended my project on the first of January this year.

00:03:16: So I'm in these transition phase where i am also looking forward to what have been, uh will do after afterwards.

00:03:25: so...I've also being very engaged in volunteering.

00:03:29: actually um..i am actually a pedagogical assistant which is a launch in crybook.

00:03:40: It's the VAMOS program, maybe some of you will be knowing what the Vamos plan is doing.

00:03:47: it also sending volunteering abroad and also receiving something from the global majority.

00:03:57: And I am also engaged working as a facilitator, trainer for a volunteer global in the global scale and those who are going to travel abroad out of Germany.

00:04:17: And those were coming from abroad to Germany.

00:04:20: so my profile.

00:04:22: I'm very happy to share my own experience here.

00:04:30: before taking too much space I will introduce my statement and give the floor to other panel member.

00:04:39: For me, volunteering presents itself as a space for sharing knowledge on questioning established perspective and preconceived ideas.

00:04:51: Volunteering is platform that should actually encourage people to become more ample both toward themselves.

00:05:02: However, in many host communities located in countries often referred to as the global majority, voluntary remains on familiar terrain.

00:05:13: At time it can become an expression of implicit iraschi and for some showcase used to be a firm sense of superiority.

00:05:27: so actually also it is shaped by imbalance imbalances in resources, expectation and recognition.

00:05:38: And also an opportunity even outcomes for volunteer members depending on where they are from the global majority or from the west.

00:05:52: so it should therefore be approached with clarity of awareness that each participant engages in it with a genuine spirit of sharing and reciprocity.

00:06:03: Volunteering can be an open door to share learning about the human experience, all its diversity if I also help us understand that not everything can be fully grasped or explained yet sometimes respect for their existence.

00:06:22: So I would like to start with that.

00:06:33: Okay, thank you very much Dolly.

00:06:35: so i think now we go to.

00:06:37: the next is Laila can you introduce yourself and then just read your statement or present your statement?

00:06:46: Thank

00:06:46: You Hi everyone!

00:06:50: I'm Lailaa originally from Afghanistan based in Lesbos living here now for almost seven years I have volunteered in a lot of different organizations.

00:07:06: At the moment, I'm working at an illegal organization here also on Lesbos.

00:07:12: Yeah but i've been volunteering a lot or forced to volunteer while living inside camp for economic reasons and other reasons.

00:07:24: But yeah my background is...I studied electrical engineering so it's far from what am I doing in these days.

00:07:33: I'm a member of the feminist collectives here in Lesbos also and so, i go to that statement.

00:07:42: yes...i would like just say at the beginning not against volunteering..I was also volunteering myself but today I would prefer talk mostly about or critical the volunteerism, or why do I see it as a problem?

00:08:07: So of course just to say also that I'm not against solidarity.

00:08:13: Not against people moving going different places mostly towards borders and any other countries for help in support.

00:08:25: but if i am talking mostly about their problems, it doesn't mean I'm against the idea.

00:08:33: The whole idea in general.

00:08:37: So yes, volunteerism for me is this...the first problem that they say on this topic It's about timeline and short time.

00:08:48: people are coming like usually in a better way.

00:08:54: It's like minimum three months, but it starts from one week to twelve weeks or you can also go longer.

00:09:01: For me this is already one of the issues that we have in volunteerism and also for its being organized by NGOs.

00:09:13: non-governmental organization And I know many of the organization is not even possible if there's no volunteering to continue their work and critical or go against policy makers, or politicals.

00:09:29: But they way that this being done it important for me the volunteers should at least... Or what can i say?

00:09:37: What you see here in Lesbos was being at external border in Europe that when volunteers are coming here to Lesbos is mostly for volunteering inside the camp or outside in daily shelters, different organization NGOs.

00:09:56: For me it should not go with a government.

00:10:03: The volunteers shouldn't cover what state providing and should not show that it's like, is another big deal.

00:10:18: And yeah... That is also part sorry.

00:10:27: Also the other part is when people or at least what am I experiencing?

00:10:33: What am i seeing here?

00:10:35: It's mostly volunteers are coming without no experience, or with low-experience.

00:10:41: Or I would say no experience at all No knowledge Background cultural...or anything about the situation here.

00:10:49: mostly The volunteers are coming being centred in issue.

00:10:55: instead of centring community problems and resistance.

00:11:01: It's usually developing volunteers help that they provide.

00:11:06: it is being centered.

00:11:09: But the issue is that when this working, these experience here it's becoming bullet point in CVs or its become... Is there a pass for professionals who are at the beginning of their journeys?

00:11:28: Like I've been working with medical with medics, mental health and lawyers.

00:11:37: Even if they have studied their experience most of the time volunteers are coming here in the beginning of their journeys.

00:11:47: I think i will stop.

00:11:48: maybe here then we can continue.

00:11:52: Okay thank you very much Laila And I forgot to say congratulations Dolly for defending your PhD.

00:11:59: Great staff really Thank You.

00:12:04: So let's go on to Malika.

00:12:08: Malika, sorry can you introduce yourself and present your statement?

00:12:14: Yes thank you.

00:12:15: hi I'm Malika from Zugvergel Overcoming Borders Association And we are an association that is based in Germany.

00:12:25: We've been active since fifteen years critically examined historically evolved power relations that we think continue to shape global inequalities through unequal freedom of movement, dominant development concepts and the unequal distribution of resources in decision-making power.

00:12:52: And we have diverse political activities although a little less active now.

00:12:59: But we worked on different topics like freedom of movement, also environmental justice always together with our partner organizations in the Global South.

00:13:13: So in Mexico, Nepal, Uganda, Rwanda and Ecuador.

00:13:20: And a very strong point of our political activities was also organizing voluntary service One year long for people from the countries of our partner organizations to come to Germany and make like a one or sometimes one-and-a half year long voluntary service in Germany.

00:13:43: And yeah, volunteerism as we defined it in our political... work is a combination of volunteering and tourism.

00:13:56: And it is exactly that, so helping as part.

00:14:04: As a person from the global north, you might go to Costa Rica rescue sea turtles in the morning then spend afternoon at beach and these are commercial programs that turn inequality into an experience.

00:14:22: Four people who were willing to pay for it and volunteerism is often helped.

00:14:28: The frame is helping, but honestly tourism for profit cannot be activism.

00:14:36: When helping becomes something you can buy it becomes a product and products follow market logic not the need of communities.

00:14:45: There were some cases in Nepal where children were taken away from their families and placed into orphanages just to attract foreign volunteers and donations And many of these children were not orphans at all, but they were used to generate income from well-intentioned visitors.

00:15:05: This shows the problem of volunteerism really well.

00:15:08: when poverty becomes part of a business model then there's an incentive to maintain it.

00:15:16: Another important part in voluntary marketing is language.

00:15:21: It often uses exoticizing images and narratives.

00:15:27: These stories are not neutral and reproduce racist power structures by positioning some people as saviours, others as saved.

00:15:38: A short stay abroad can rarely change the structure that produce poverty or injustice if we're serious about change to look at power politics and responsibility.

00:15:57: So for us, the key question is not whether people want to help but it's whether this model of helping actually challenges inequality or just stabilizes.

00:16:09: Thank you very much Malika.

00:16:11: thank all three of your very interesting statements.

00:16:15: All talk about structures that are behind this volunteering business and I would really like The difference between volunteering and political activism or solidarity work, as you put it Laila?

00:16:37: Yes.

00:16:38: For me... Between the volunteerism and activism of your political work or solidarity work I think for my first point is the reason why do we want to do this?

00:16:51: Why?

00:16:52: what do they want to gain?

00:16:54: What does that take from us?

00:16:57: As I mentioned before, for volunteering it's becoming for CV making or when you want to go in a place that usually... You wouldn't go but you would if you wanted to show your volunteering as a volunteer.

00:17:19: For me this is the first thing which makes clear because political job or anything you want to do politically, and it's important for your to-do.

00:17:34: You wouldn't think what would... Yes of course It is important that you gain but its for everyone.

00:17:40: But volunteering is mostly individually Or it's an individual group in form of NGO or any other informal groups.

00:17:51: For me this one The first thing, one of the important things that can divide it very clearly in the beginning.

00:18:00: Okay!

00:18:00: The question is if its always so clear?

00:18:03: I mean If Its Clear to you or even to people who are volunteerisming Because i think a lot of people would also tell themselves It's kind political activism.

00:18:16: but actually on other hand there´s part for them wants to do this for their CV, so I guess that's really maybe difficult to understand.

00:18:28: Question back to you?

00:18:30: Yeah yeah i would say yes of course it is difficult.

00:18:33: and yes i have seen also a lot of volunteers coming here like doing job but seeing themselves as the saviour.

00:18:40: at the same time too... Maybe its not very clear.

00:18:47: When you do activism, again what do you think behind?

00:18:53: At the end of today you cannot lie to yourself right maybe as part a few.

00:18:57: it's about that.

00:18:58: but for example I can talk less when volunteers are coming here.

00:19:01: It is a Greek island.

00:19:02: at the end as Malika said before, like you go to a place and then enjoy the place also.

00:19:13: But when your politicals... You don't think about that!

00:19:19: Okay I'm going there.

00:19:20: what else should i see?

00:19:21: What else should they visit?

00:19:23: What do i do?

00:19:24: but if it's your political job you're more focused on okay how we'll do it and have a plan.

00:19:29: already In volunteerism, I don't see people coming as a plan.

00:19:33: There is an NGO behind or if someone's coming individual with no plans

00:19:39: They

00:19:40: come and then they have maybe daily schedule for specific hours doing some work And Like, until the next duty that they are supposed to do.

00:20:03: And this is part of making volunteerism and activism for me more.

00:20:09: This is a part I see here in Lesbos or like people coming here.

00:20:13: yes They volunteered inside the camp Or any other places.

00:20:18: After one week their family come visit.

00:20:20: after two weeks Their partner comes to visit and then they served with it.

00:20:24: The friends are coming to visit, so there's two hours maybe inside the camp... And in the rest of them go into their touristic area.

00:20:31: They ask people where do you want to see?

00:20:33: They forgot about that!

00:20:34: They forgot to bring this to advocate for it because they're getting lost themselves also.

00:20:41: Okay thank you Laila Dolly.

00:20:46: Yes I think Lailaa already mentioned a lot.

00:20:52: I think even connecting volunteerism or voluntarism to activism can be questionable, or problematic because first of all, volunteering is something that can be advised.

00:21:07: Someone wants better know the society and want look for spaces where they can engage themselves in an activist way.

00:21:17: For me, volunteerism should this platform where you engage in a land process to know actually what is going on, and the world or which places.

00:21:29: And how can bring yourself into that?

00:21:33: So for me it's that... That was should be but The fact that directly something connected with activism.

00:21:41: You see that spirit of white saviour

00:21:45: starts

00:21:47: at the beginning of the journey of volunteerism.

00:21:50: It means that their intention to engage in volunteerism is no more to learn, it's not about being open and seeing which kind of issue The world is going through how I can put myself into that but I am aware of the fact that they are suffering there and i will go and save them at some time.

00:22:14: When you read The Motivation Letter, You can just sit back into your chair And say what's going on here?

00:22:22: This little one who really think he can save the world by going there.

00:22:29: because knowing That it is also sometimes part the obligation of your university schedule that you need to volunteer or You'll need to go abroad abroad.

00:22:43: Or, you will need to engage some people are doing that forcibly like they Go into the volunteering program because it should be also part of their Mark University record and I think me those but I mean further Program which are organizing this volunteering activities, it is important to prepare.

00:23:08: It's the reason why its important for those who have been chosen to volunteer To show them what is actually a volunteerism?

00:23:17: Why is it important be open and look at whats happening in world even if an organization dealing with one subject to organize the learning process even before going to volunteerism.

00:23:35: But I mean today is changing, but not that much because regarding the resources which are put into the volunteerism it's difficult to go aside in the privileges that volunteerism is also proposing for those especially from the global north.

00:23:58: They have this facility to travel that can easily travel from where they live, another place without needing long waiting time for visa.

00:24:09: For example and even when there are in a place it is also easy for them to travel from were actually supposed to volunteer through different other places.

00:24:23: It is where volunteerism starts to be voluntarism because of the privileges that are already there for them.

00:24:35: And also, they have some resources people from the global majority don't have and feel themselves very at ease in seeing that they are coming with resources.

00:24:53: They can do whatever the one, they can travel or stay and this is why learning process should be very important even before starting of going into a project.

00:25:09: And once you go onto your projects it's also important to make sure at the place where they are volunteering, are willing to having them there.

00:25:22: Because sometimes that I'm really willing to have in them.

00:25:25: but it happened forcibly because there is some political affinity between two countries and the country has agreed to receive ten or seven volunteer, for example from Germany in one year.

00:25:46: For example and they are looking for organization.

00:25:49: people are building organizations just because They want to be part of this program Because being part of these bring also in resources.

00:25:58: but the people Are there ones who are going?

00:26:01: To receive those volunteers.

00:26:07: there will be also the one who are going to work with them together.

00:26:11: So, in which buses they're gonna walk?

00:26:14: Are they really prepared to receive them?

00:26:16: or do you prepare as well so that we can understand their hierarchy and how it would play into a relationship?

00:26:26: This is something I haven't seen actually on the volunteering program where even people The volunteers from the Global North are prepared in their community to receive those people,

00:26:41: not

00:26:41: only knowing what they're going to do but noticing that there will be power structure in place and play them.

00:26:51: They have to work through it.

00:26:55: Yes, I think it's important also to have the terminology clear.

00:26:59: I would say that volunteering is different from volunteerism and both are or can be a difference in activism.

00:27:11: The difference between volunteering and volunteerism, obviously is that the volunteer has a tourism part which for us as I also said in the beginning it's clearly commercial and recreative aspect to it.

00:27:28: That the volunteering doesn't necessarily have or usually does not have question between volunteering and activism, what the difference is.

00:27:42: I think it can be difficult to distinguish.

00:27:45: um i agree with Leila that definitely the intention or the political perspective is important but i think this cannot so change individually on a societal level.

00:28:08: who considers themselves or is considered an activist, or a volunteer has lot to do also with power structures.

00:28:20: So if white German person goes through the Global South for volunteering program I think they will automatically be considered as someone who knows what they're doing, they chose this deliberately.

00:28:42: They have a political agenda.

00:28:47: whereas some one from the Global South comes to Germany for volunteering many people may think oh they want to stay in Germany.

00:28:56: This is also where visa issues come into place that you mentioned Dolly.

00:29:02: we had lots of problems with always People in Germany and the German embassies, they do not believe that people from The Global South come to Germany for help.

00:29:13: Because why would they?

00:29:18: And even countries from The global south may be.

00:29:22: the intention attributed to these people who have come volunteering is more you want to learn a language or stay for studying.

00:29:36: So already the political perspective that is attributed, it's very different depending on the context.

00:29:45: Thank you very much Maralika.

00:29:47: I'm reading a little bit parallelly in the chat.

00:29:51: there are also some interests.

00:29:53: There're lot of people who were active being politically active or being volunteers in Lesbos for example, all being active in the refugee context from different kind of perspectives.

00:30:11: In other countries.

00:30:13: and The question is there was a concrete question that one participant was interested in the harmful consequences volunteering.

00:30:28: I think we have talked about it a little bit already, but maybe one of you can put this question shortly.

00:30:36: and what can be harmful for volunteerism?

00:30:46: What is harmful or how it could be harmful?

00:30:54: When volunteering changes to volunteerism It's the way that is, the harmful part has started.

00:31:00: Why?

00:31:00: Because automatically it's being connected to a lot of other big things like white-savourism.

00:31:08: Like all their power All them privilege Everything.

00:31:13: First of all... All people who are coming or most of the people Who come to volunteer Is the one who can afford volunteering.

00:31:22: Its already privileged and the one who has papers, as we said before it was mentioned that like... It also depends from where to wear.

00:31:33: Like how is being named?

00:31:36: The way this thing put its already harmful And after all of these happened Sorry!

00:31:46: Before that.

00:31:47: It also means that the work of this political or solidarity is being shaped by privileged people, yes.

00:31:56: People who are already privileged and there even more privileged can afford to come to volunteers.

00:32:01: And it's already for me changed context a bit.

00:32:07: When becoming comfortable when centering the volunteer not community itself When it's starting to show the situation, that is not as difficult.

00:32:22: To try and to show their violence at the borders like being more focused on how we're doing or look How are helping people?

00:32:31: Or under well-being of the volunteers And then forgetting about the resistance of community themselves About all problems in the movement They going through all situations when the focus moves, it's also a part that problem has started.

00:32:52: And I've mentioned this before – there is no requirement needed for volunteering if someone wants to volunteer most of the time and there isn't any experience or was also mentioned earlier in training.

00:33:08: There is no background knowledge, not about culture or situation.

00:33:12: Not about any sensitive topics.

00:33:16: These are all the examples that when it comes to a problem Or also show clear power in one's life.

00:33:26: Maybe this isn't on purpose but if they know I'm doing good, and avoiding that.

00:33:35: The power is there.

00:33:36: you're the one making decision.

00:33:38: so all of this shows their community as only people who are receiving help.

00:33:48: they do not know how to solve a problem which is exactly opposite but when all the harms start.

00:34:00: Thank You very much.

00:34:02: Yeah, I think this is very interesting also to do that.

00:34:06: the volunteers are also political activists.

00:34:10: They're very often focused on their individual experience without addressing or constructing a part of problem.

00:34:21: then personal growing of volunteer becomes the focus and not actually the structural problem, for example.

00:34:32: The violence at the border is somehow in the back of the discussion.

00:34:38: Thank you very much Dolly.

00:34:40: I mean

00:34:42: volunteering and volunteerism can also do

00:34:46: something

00:34:48: because

00:34:50: there

00:34:50: are some time.

00:34:52: hiding the real problematic which is out there Like the fact that we are receiving people from the Global North to help refugees means there is, yeah.

00:35:04: People who are with you and yet they're looking for relief.

00:35:09: They have to go out asking for freedom.

00:35:11: They had to go flying away from war or flying away something which most of their time not even involved at first place.

00:35:24: political groups in their countries to organize war, organized economic starvation.

00:35:32: And they are taking this for the magic of day from public discovery to showcase volunteerism that you're helping me just survive your suffering but you have to continue stopping, because we need our resources in your companies.

00:35:58: So this is where to put it in the cloud team.

00:36:02: There are also people who are going to volunteer In some countries Where they will see big carters Big companies Who are not taking care of or even looking at their environment.

00:36:20: We're

00:36:21: not looking at how the compound is sending waste into water, destroying what other people are drinking.

00:36:32: so they are sick and they need help.

00:36:36: And then we see volunteer program engaging there a lot.

00:36:41: So this like I would say it's a twist It's a plot the reality sometimes.

00:36:48: Then volunteering is there to cover the real problem and make sure that even... I mean, the colonial continue continues

00:37:00: like

00:37:02: economic in your community.

00:37:05: continuous don't think and do wars also continuous because if our volunteer program we're gonna help you after that or my interview in my entire region which is involved, it also involves that.

00:37:20: So this was the

00:37:20: first project

00:37:21: and second one

00:37:22: I

00:37:24: don't even know why around two reasons came to me.

00:37:28: This is a colonial idea just has nothing to do with wanting to connect

00:37:37: in an

00:37:38: intercultural way watching other others.

00:37:41: It says wanting showcase someone's privilege a situation which is very challenging for the people who are living there.

00:37:50: So I don't even understand why this questionable, this

00:37:58: whole

00:38:00: aspect of volunteerism was overtaken by capitalist interest to make sure that it didn't exist.

00:38:09: That volunteerism exists?

00:38:12: It is problematic in itself because even volunteering it's actually giving people,

00:38:21: privileged

00:38:21: people the possibility to go abroad and showcase

00:38:25: that they

00:38:26: are living a good position.

00:38:27: And I want to help.

00:38:29: now

00:38:29: you're adding into it volunteerism where those who were very happy

00:38:34: with their

00:38:35: privileges paid

00:38:36: to go there

00:38:37: and showcase what?

00:38:38: So this already problematic

00:38:41: at

00:38:42: first

00:38:42: sight.

00:38:43: So I will just

00:38:44: stop there first.

00:38:46: Yeah, thank you very much Toli.

00:38:47: yeah i think also this very individual perspective again that the one person can make a big change.

00:38:59: This is also a mirror of the capitalist view or individualist view That takes away the perspective.

00:39:08: if want to change something You have do it together or in a group, but that there's so much responsibility for the person.

00:39:20: A lot of people feel also great with it!

00:39:22: I'm so important to have this

00:39:24: responsibility.".

00:39:25: But it takes away also an idea okay?

00:39:29: That change is something happens when people work together and not with single persons.

00:39:44: So, if

00:39:52: people who are volunteers stop coming like in places to volunteer this would create a gap.

00:40:14: Okay, who wants to answer this?

00:40:17: Valika.

00:40:19: I can start but um i would also love to hear your perspectives then and

00:40:25: i think

00:40:26: it's volunteerism happens in a lot of contexts And the ones that we were looking mostly at in Zugverge.

00:40:34: there would be no gap if volunteers are not there.

00:40:38: If you help A few hours a day taking care off orphans that are actually trafficked children, these kids would just be at home with their parents.

00:40:51: Someone will lose money.

00:40:53: yes the organization that trafficked them in order to get money from Western volunteers but it would better for everyone.

00:41:05: I'm sure that there are other contexts where maybe volunteers or volunteer tourists might be more needed.

00:41:16: But the cases we were looking at, no one would miss them.

00:41:23: and on a society level it's important to rethink what is volunteer work in our societies, what does work with a salary?

00:41:38: I think this is very complex topic.

00:41:43: And I think governments or we as society do have the option to redistribute all resources be it money and time coming for volunteerism, because I think that the harmful aspects of it will always outweigh potential positive aspects.

00:42:14: Thanks Malika.

00:42:16: Do you want to respond?

00:42:20: Did both say whatever?

00:42:23: which one was yours first?

00:42:31: from Malika is actually care what when it comes to volunteerism.

00:42:38: I mean, those are parts of our society right now maybe because they were a need for them to be there.

00:42:48: but i always ask to start by the first question What Is The Problem We Want To Solve Here and How?

00:43:01: I mean, it can be complementary to other means that will help not manipulate voluntarism or volunteerism but make them part of the solution.

00:43:15: Not being a part of an instrument for political manipulation and showing that there is a problem which isn't the case.

00:43:25: so from me they are also.

00:43:30: as i said I am moving within the environment of volunteerism and i think it is a learning process.

00:43:43: And maybe coming out that you can learn from yourself, or other people who actually make better know what to fight for in an activist way.

00:43:58: I mean, this is what happened to me.

00:44:00: When i started through volunteerism and actually understood Through my year of volunteering?

00:44:08: Which kind of problematic are actually moving myself?

00:44:12: And how can continue to engage in Making sure that things will change?

00:44:19: but I know That am not the solution But I'm part Of The process and I mean This should be what people should engage on, get learning how to let yourself into a learning process.

00:44:35: Not too good being assured that I'm going to change the world or see if people actually are not really necessitating your help because you can't even have the solution to their program.

00:44:50: The problem is so big you're going to concern a lot of layers that are not even in ten fingers.

00:44:57: You are just part of the process, so being humble enough to understand your role there is not to feed something but it's also showing solidarity and another image Together a solidarity of living together because it is also that like when people are running away from a place where they Are not feeling well.

00:45:33: They don't need you to come and save them now there if the CU their Maybe try to have some another image Of your relationship through the West for example, and this other image should not be Iraqi Chico image or The image of the white savior that is to wall send a situation for them.

00:45:56: Actually, it's not empowering anyone.

00:45:59: So for me volunteering should be as I said in my statement It is a platform to humble and To exchange And also too Be open to know.

00:46:13: two to get to know to learn about some community, their problem logic and what they can also offer to the society into yourself.

00:46:22: Why being there?

00:46:25: So that's

00:46:26: okay I think in order to make it a learning process dolly They have to be facilitators like you but put this kind of questions I guess so That is very important.

00:46:37: i Have another question for You later about The Learning Process because I Think It's A Very nice topic that you tackled there.

00:46:46: Laila, You wanted also to reply?

00:46:50: Yes very shortly.

00:46:50: I mean it's mostly covered.

00:46:53: for the first part of question i would say no not everyone is tourism volunteerism all the volunteers who are coming here And that a lot of volunteers had come and they were not volunteerism or did not turn to tourism.

00:47:12: I also saw people who really came for solidarity, They have very strong political thinking behind it.

00:47:26: Yes!

00:47:26: Then which gap?

00:47:29: Yes, which gap do we need to cover?

00:47:32: Is this the gap that the government is not covering because there are NGOs or volunteers to cover.

00:47:38: I think the question also have to change in other way around.

00:47:41: maybe the government does not do that.

00:47:43: for example here in Lesbos We had questions.

00:47:47: they come commander many times like food and camp whatever And if people don't receive food from state line They just change line, they go to another language.

00:48:01: Yes it's food but provided by angels.

00:48:04: But if its not there... ...they have to do something about that right?

00:48:08: So sometimes is going to cover and also increase the gap.

00:48:14: It´s not always covering.

00:48:16: And how much is this gap?

00:48:19: I am thankful for a lot of The jobs that the state really do not care and they don't want to do it, but with covering this gap.

00:48:28: It's not helping.

00:48:29: the situation is getting the situation making even worse And then we've been showing them Not even advocating about their real put a situation here.

00:48:40: if I'm talking what was really going on.

00:48:44: This is the part of make it afterwards Even worse.

00:48:49: So yeah, like with GAP do we really need volunteers to come here?

00:48:53: And if not... Okay.

00:48:54: Yes there are some NGOs that in the beginning of my talk I said yes they cannot work without volunteers.

00:49:00: but why is that?

00:49:02: Why unless was NGOs or not accepted into local community anymore?

00:49:07: because all their mistakes have been done and they removed locals from all their steps?

00:49:13: If there's a volunteer needed it then why isn't it from locals people?

00:49:17: why we do not focus to have locals more engaged.

00:49:21: Why don't people in the move to lead, give more opportunity and chance for migrant-led groups or people who make solutions because they understand best?

00:49:35: So even if there is a gap this way how it should be covered or trained volunteers to not accept someone for two weeks, do not accept with no experience or low-experience.

00:49:51: Thank you very much Laila and I think it was an interesting question because that's only the individual volunteer but of whole NGO especially in the Greek context also based on Greece.

00:50:09: It is a huge discussion as well.

00:50:12: What are we doing and why?

00:50:14: Are we helping the state somehow in the work that they're not doing.

00:50:20: Can I put a question, but because Laila just talked to have a little balance between the speakers Malika and Dolly maybe i would be very interested In learning process.

00:50:33: you talk about Dolly also be individual and maybe a structural.

00:50:40: And Malika, you went through the learning process while being active in their voluntary sector.

00:50:50: so can we talk about the learning processes that are involved on different levels?

00:50:58: Yes!

00:51:00: The learning process actually starts from the beginning.

00:51:05: when you register for volunteering, how to...how?

00:51:11: the organization itself creates an atmosphere of awareness through the question they ask you.

00:51:19: When are you feeling the form?

00:51:22: To be a volunteer?

00:51:23: so this is first-this is creating raising our awareness Some difficult question that you have never asked yourself because maybe it has not been in an international environment.

00:51:39: This is the first learning process going through, as a person willing to volunteer but for this you need to pass through the registration process.

00:51:52: so make sure your answer those questions the best way possible.

00:51:56: So these are my first steps.

00:51:58: And then as soon you have been chosen, it means that the organization has decided to notice a profile which can fit within the volunteering process.

00:52:14: because of how they answered their questions.

00:52:18: Then being in the organization first before traveling abroad there are some things that should be organized for them about what the organization is doing that.

00:52:31: Why are you actually part of this project right now and What do we want to know before going?

00:52:41: So, And This Is Learn About Power Structure To learn about anti-racism Intersectionality Sexism Racism and so on it is for You to be able also too be part of some workshops on self-care, communication, interculturality.

00:53:09: So these are different topics that should be addressed during the workshop you will go to just for your understanding about moving in an international environment where you should actually umber yourself and learn anyone, anything.

00:53:28: but your knowledge will also be interesting for you to share with others and so this is a process that people are actually from me should go through before traveling abroad.

00:53:45: And the experience is different sometimes unique because it's not easy.

00:53:56: this process you will be able to reflect on your perspectives and to see, discover what's new.

00:54:05: What can I learn?

00:54:09: And how we are in a good environment.

00:54:15: It is not the magic with it but already at beginning For people who are willing to go into volunteering and I mean, even being there in the organization.

00:54:32: The process should continue.

00:54:33: they learn pressure continued.

00:54:35: that shall be some.

00:54:37: Uh, I mean some break or session where you?

00:54:42: You discover what you were before and what we have become today.

00:54:47: What do you want to learn more?

00:54:49: Where Do You Want To Work More On And Continue Doing It Through Your Voluntary Process.

00:54:55: Also Have Not To Quit About To Continue Till The End Of the Processor.

00:55:04: This Is What I Can Say Like In A Concrete Way How Someone Can Engage in a Learning Process While Voluntaring.

00:55:12: So Maybe That, How Are You Phrased That?

00:55:15: It's Also Sound a little bit like an unlearning process.

00:55:18: It's learning and unlearning also some things, unlearning is also the term that is used in the critical volunteer scene.

00:55:28: I don't know...I say this just to the participants?

00:55:39: How known are these terms?

00:55:43: Malika!

00:55:46: Yeah, maybe just quickly because I think a lot of things have already been said by Dolly.

00:55:52: And i think the individual learning process it depends alot on the person how open they are but also a lot on the structures and i think that very important side here is this structural part.

00:56:12: in Part where organizations accompany the learners in their volunteering process, I think is what is often lacking in volunteerism.

00:56:26: Especially these short-term projects and programs And those that have a commercial basis Where then focus shifts towards an economic interest of people.

00:56:43: I think the learning process is very important.

00:56:53: also continue to learn mostly in exchange, with the partner organizations and all of our volunteers that we accompanied for eleven years.

00:57:09: We've learned a lot through a lot of processes as well.

00:57:17: Yeah, I think no one's perfect.

00:57:25: It's totally normal to continue learning.

00:57:28: it's totally normally.

00:57:29: two have a starting point and then start criticizing certain things is also totally fine too.

00:57:38: Continue doing something even though you know might be problematic because maybe he thinks that in this individual situation there still positive outcome.

00:57:50: I think the environment is important.

00:57:53: Are there seminars?

00:57:55: Is their psychological help some kind of supervision, preparation process?

00:58:06: do people get to do tasks that normally would require something like a medical degree or an educational be filled successfully.

00:58:22: And this is then very harmful, as we discussed before for both the volunteer and people surrounding.

00:58:30: so that I think

00:58:39: Okay, so we have talked about different terms of volunteerism.

00:58:44: Volunteers political activism solidarity work.

00:58:48: So I think there's some things that are very very different in all these areas and they're Some issues in all of the structures.

00:59:00: and I think because participants are from various backgrounds, it's interesting to see what is actually happening there surrounding.

00:59:12: Because most of them have been active.

00:59:17: How can NGOs for example those working at Lesbos since this Is the context I've experienced recently?

00:59:28: Incorporate volunteers in their structure without it becoming voluntarism.

00:59:32: What steps can they take to avoid

00:59:34: this?".

00:59:37: Leila, i see that you want to answer

00:59:49: this!

00:59:50: answer for this honestly, me going critical and going against volunteering like doing all of these.

00:59:57: And then try to put them in structure.

01:00:00: how is that possible?

01:00:02: I think first they have to make sure do we need volunteers... ...and i guess it's referring to white volunteers European people because here in Lesvos there are two term for volunteers.

01:00:17: We call them white volunteers.

01:00:20: Volunteers and we called the people in the move who are volunteering community volunteers, so it's already divided.

01:00:28: And this is one of the problem.

01:00:30: saying volunteers separately here.

01:00:32: In some organizations The Community volunteers or not allowed to go out with other volunteers Or they have other volunteers cannot do I don't know can not exchange context With the community volunteers on all that.

01:00:46: So if we need the volunteers, which I'm referring to white volunteers.

01:00:50: If do you need it?

01:00:52: Then yes We can first really try not and go to locals To people themselves too see how they could Do their job.

01:01:05: there is a gap to be covered.

01:01:08: But if not, just go with education.

01:01:11: Most of the time here in Lesbos I see people who are coming and have no idea about what's happening... ...about politicals, situations or backgrounds for people... ...or cultural sensitivities.

01:01:26: I've been asked a lot of stupid questions.

01:01:29: sometimes they... who are coming to hear volunteers with no experience, no background or being just in the beginning of their journey without experience.

01:01:40: They come and sometimes really without knowing they're asking questions which is very helpful.

01:01:48: So they have to go through this, and also not short-term volunteer.

01:01:52: If you don't want your volunteer change to a tourist then do bring someone for one week or two weeks without experience... ...without knowing anything.

01:02:01: sometimes who wants to go to Lesvos which is as I said it's the Greek island at the end?

01:02:10: so yes a holiday place.

01:02:13: and why someone should come to this very difficult situation, come for a week or two or maximum three or months.

01:02:21: And then being involved in a lot of things without knowing... Or being indirect contact with people on the move Without understanding anything about their culture What they're going through all the problems.

01:02:36: So education trainings before people come here and also afterwards.

01:02:41: You're not coming for two weeks, or months And then you are living in maybe two years and want to come back again.

01:02:48: No we want you talk about it.

01:02:51: We want you advocate about it To make the poll...to share the word, to advocate, bring discussions Whatever happened with situations Back into their homeland to organise something there Not always just to come here Two weeks Then a person disappears.

01:03:08: Yeah, I think I'll stop here and maybe if someone else wants to add.

01:03:11: Thank you!

01:03:16: The distinction between white and community volunteer was very important.

01:03:21: thank-you for making it because I mean the white volunteers also this Eurocentric vision.

01:03:34: But Dolly has to leave us in five minutes.

01:03:39: So, Dolly do you want to make a last statement for you?

01:03:42: Unfortunately I have to go.

01:03:47: Yes yes unfortunately

01:03:50: after going five minutes but let me raise my voice for the last statement.

01:03:55: um i really appreciate that volunteerism and volunteerism is addressed as a question we should discuss, not really as a gap that was fulfilling but they are already existing in the society.

01:04:12: We have to deal with them.

01:04:14: But how do you deal?

01:04:15: With them is the question we're trying answer now.

01:04:19: I mean the words on learning your perspective.

01:04:23: it's very important and also Learning or being part of process for the fact That It Is A Process And Not An End.

01:04:32: It is for me very important because it's a process of discovering yourself, discovering the others and also sharing.

01:04:42: Sharing if you discover the other things that there was something to fight for so they can share or put themselves out there to show some more solidarity into their situation.

01:04:59: So Varunjir Rizim should be this platform for openness, clarity.

01:05:10: Not really open to political manipulation but being aware of the fact that it is an alternative not to discuss very serious issues happening and make people In the situation that they have to volunteer because there are places in the world where volunteering is needed.

01:05:31: So this program should not be covered through volunteerism, but she'll find light there To find people who want to be sorry and fight for or help fighting For those programmatic that actually should be solved at another level.

01:05:50: so volunteerism process of learning and also just start maybe of finding themselves or finding what we want to fight for at an activist then afterwards.

01:06:04: So there are we close, they're more to say... We should not cover it tonight but I hope you have said reflect on it and discuss more of the issue.

01:06:28: Thank you so much, Dolly for being with us in sharing your views and opinions.

01:06:36: thank you for being part of this discussion but just dolly before we go.

01:06:41: I think a very important thing is that in all of the areas that we are active, independent from what perspective.

01:06:56: It's very important to talk about these structures and have an open forum so they can change our structure.

01:07:05: Yes

01:07:07: exactly because what we mentioned here is those coming from a global majority volunteer here And they are also going through a lot, and there're going to lots of difficulties.

01:07:20: So for them not be left alone in the difficulty that should also structure for them to empower them, follow their process...to measure their expectations because expectation is always high when you arrive but reality sometimes It's hard.

01:07:43: So it is important whether the of the volunteer people who are going abroad or those were coming into the north to be part of a learning process.

01:07:58: for Those who are coming from the global majority, they need To be accompanied in the process.

01:08:05: They need to be empowered.

01:08:08: there also need for them not to cut and abandon.

01:08:14: They also need people who understand what they are going through, so even within the process there should be a structure which is accompanying Lord.

01:08:43: Okay, thank you Dolly and maybe we can go on with a question to Malika because she went through the process of changing also your focus for work.

01:08:57: how do try avoid power dynamics like paternalism or racism between your organization and partner organizations?

01:09:07: could talk about the process?

01:09:11: that your organization went through and where you are at the moment as well?

01:09:16: Yeah, so actually we stopped organizing voluntary services for people from The Global House to come to Germany.

01:09:29: We stopped this three years ago.

01:09:32: two years ago This was an important part of our political work but we decided to

01:09:42: stop

01:09:43: for several reasons.

01:09:49: Since we started the volunteering program fifteen years ago, We have encountered a lot of difficulties because it's not the same volunteer from the Global South who come to Germany as white volunteers go to the global south.

01:10:09: Already getting visa for the volunteers to come to Germany was very difficult.

01:10:16: We put people in very difficult personal situations where they didn't know if they would be able to travel, one day before their flight or several times through the capital of their country and get a visa personally.

01:10:41: vulnerable and embarrassing processes at the visa interviews.

01:10:47: They were often rejected, then they arrived to Germany.

01:10:51: of course they faced racism here Because if you're a black volunteer working in kindergarten or hospital, people don't see the same as white volunteers.

01:11:10: Often our volunteers experience that they were cleaning staff were not at all really trained to do this kind of work.

01:11:24: So, yeah they're very negative experiences I think from all volunteers that came to Germany racism and host families.

01:11:40: so we still continued the process for several years always closely coordinating with our partner organizations, because we were only on the receiving end.

01:11:57: We didn't choose the volunteers and we weren't just helping with logistics and accompanying in Germany.

01:12:07: And we had a very tight process place where people arriving to Germany were closely accompanied in all the logistic path, language learning and also regular seminars empowerment political context culture and so on.

01:12:34: but yeah we still decided to stop partly because of these problems partly also because we ourselves only volunteers.

01:12:47: So we had no paid structure and the workload to organize visa, to organize seminars became a lot And too few people active in Germany To support that.

01:13:07: Okay Thank you very much Malika.

01:13:14: What do you expect from volunteers coming to Lesbos?

01:13:18: And what would be your wish of how volunteering looks like on lesbos.

01:13:26: I'd like add a question that, How do talk about power inequalities between the different

01:13:40: kinds

01:13:42: volunteers you have, how do call it the work of volunteers and community volunteers.

01:13:47: Is there a process to tackle this somehow?

01:13:51: There are lots questions for you.

01:13:52: I don't know

01:13:54: if... Maybe we should not see volunteers here or be covered every single time.

01:13:58: We don´t have gap or problems.

01:14:01: Do not get me wrong.

01:14:02: at beginning stage i said that im not against volunteering but helping But Im against the way its being doing so far or moving For now.

01:14:13: So yeah, I hope people when they come here have clear mind.

01:14:21: They know about situation and are politically aligned not coming just to see okay i'm going do something good for myself And then go back as a hero To be aware of all the power dynamics a privilege that they have even if or to not see like people in the move, too.

01:14:49: To kind of force them to be thankful for their help that they're providing because they are able to.

01:14:56: Because by example what I say here is most often time when volunteers white volunteers are coming from here.

01:15:03: They...they had the privilege They have the privilege to spend some time here without working or getting paid and also having extra costs, covering everything.

01:15:17: Some organisations are covering flights in accommodation but not everyone.

01:15:21: so yes there is an extra cost that not everybody can do it.

01:15:24: So its another privilege for people.

01:15:26: But when they come here sometimes It's like... The way I see someone reacting I do something good, i'm already here.

01:15:35: I left my children or maybe house and partner of family behind them to help.

01:15:43: so they may not mention it in word but you have to be thankful for that.

01:15:49: Or if im offering two-three options You must be thankful what u have And you are in a safe place.

01:16:00: So I think for the first part of question and second, about different.

01:16:08: First i have to say that they really hate this phrase used by community volunteers.

01:16:16: when people call from camp here Community Volunteers and other people are volunteers.

01:16:22: First of all aren't we fighting for a community?

01:16:25: Aren't you in same group?

01:16:26: why are we dividing people?

01:16:29: And then when it goes to the power dynamic there are like specific trainings or meetings for volunteers, white volunteers.

01:16:38: When they come and community volunteers as they call it is separated in this sport I don't know...in a cafe or cooking I can see, i have also been volunteering as i said in the beginning.

01:16:58: I could say that i don't have a saying on that.

01:17:00: like even it's being there...it has been practice and its been there unfortunately for very long time That now if im somewhere working If someone from camp comes to ask me question when i answer their questions maybe person will not believe me.

01:17:18: Maybe person wants to hear this form white person because it's been practiced all this time, there is a power dynamic.

01:17:27: Even though for me having experience living here many years when I'm translating for someone and know the answer if i say from myself sometimes its not accepted because there should be a white person next to me saying something, maybe I'm translating something completely wrong or just adding from myself.

01:17:53: But it should be there for the... And why do we have this?

01:17:58: This shows all of our power and privilege.

01:18:04: in balance that is what they are.

01:18:07: Also too In some fields community volunteers again, that they're here for longer time and do their job.

01:18:19: But the white volunteers are changing mostly but as soon as a white volunteer arrives... Again if this is the white person who just arrived does not have experience or don't know what's going on with them maybe it would be better to do so in this way.

01:18:35: Have you tried that?

01:18:36: Or let us try like without noticing Maybe its good idea!

01:18:42: the power dynamic, it again showed that the imbalance of all the problems we have there.

01:18:51: Thank you very much Laila.

01:18:56: We've prepared some questions with Josie and Mina.

01:19:01: actually I had prepared a few before.

01:19:06: And i would like to ask another question which is more structural for Malika as well because in your state You also talked about capitalism and how capitalism, our economic structure shapes the world of volunteering work.

01:19:29: Can you speak a little bit?

01:19:30: How do How do you see the structures of capitalism reflected in your work and how are you trying to counter it?

01:19:45: Yeah, that's a very big question.

01:19:47: Capitalism structures all our interactions as humans I would say has many levels, so I think if you start at the very top and do you think which work or whose works have salary in a capital system?

01:20:14: And who's work does not often reproductive work by women.

01:20:24: community volunteers, maybe as in the example of Leila.

01:20:28: So

01:20:29: whose

01:20:30: work is valued with money and who's not?

01:20:37: And then on the next level I think capitalism also structures on a global the movement of this because obviously you can volunteer in your community, which a lot of people do.

01:21:00: But then if this is called volunteering or If This Is Just Called Normal Reproductive Work has already a structural component to it as I mentioned also at the beginning.

01:21:19: So if you're taking care of your own kids, no one would call that volunteering.

01:21:24: Well maybe some men would but then it's just normal reproductive work.

01:21:34: and of course capitalism also structures who has the

01:21:39: means

01:21:42: to volunteer time and money.

01:21:47: And

01:21:49: then

01:21:50: capitalism also structures who has not only the economical means, but also the moral means to go somewhere else and volunteer.

01:22:05: And of course, on the moral logistic side you have also strong passports for example.

01:22:12: who can travel?

01:22:13: Who doesn't need a visa.

01:22:16: Which is also strongly shaped by capitalism.

01:22:21: which how do we want workers to move or not?

01:22:28: so this obviously Yeah, it's everywhere.

01:22:38: Great thank you for your answer.

01:22:40: and also not connected to capitalism but also the gender views on capitalism.

01:22:52: that was very interesting.

01:22:55: we have another question is there a structure where organizations can get advice for an organization on Lesbos.

01:23:07: Who wants to answer this question?

01:23:11: Maybe you, yeah...

01:23:13: I mean i can't say for lesbos specifically but we as Zugvölge had a two year long what at the time called Rassismus-Politische Prozessbegleitung by an external NGO and that worked really great.

01:23:34: maybe something like that could also exist in Lesbos.

01:23:40: Yeah, also Josie from Brockenwijn can say something to this.

01:23:44: and I can also say some things because we are on our publications because we have a publication on global north-south corporations on refugee solidarity and empowerment people from the global north going to the Global South and in all of our publications we have questionnaires that should help either the individual or the organizations reflecting about power inequalities, so I think they are downloadable.

01:24:25: on our Glokalwell Fed under publications.

01:24:28: Josie, but you want to say also something too if I understood it correctly?

01:24:33: Yes so like we as Brückenwind will offer workshops for organizations and i think what we don't manage do is what Malika says have this two-year process that maybe or a long process that's accompanied We offer workshops about different power dynamics that exist in this volunteering, like as I said at the beginning.

01:24:59: And yeah...I think you can just approach us if you are interested in one of these.

01:25:05: Yeah!

01:25:06: That's a development where there is discussion on this and there're lots of organizations who are active publications or movies.

01:25:21: There's this new movie I think published last year, I'm fine but about a volunteer from Cameroon coming to Germany.

01:25:33: very interesting film.

01:25:35: okay then i i think reflecting about what we have said now in the last nearly two hours Laila and Malika do you want Have a small, do you call it recap in English?

01:25:49: I don't know.

01:25:50: A short statement at the end who wants to start?

01:25:56: I can start and i-i...I Don't Know if I Can Give a Recap but I want To give a shout out to everyone Who's In this event tonight.

01:26:08: And Yeah, I think you don't need to have the answers through everything already.

01:26:18: We are all learning and most of the problems that we were talking about tonight as structural... And we have to see them as structural problems!

01:26:30: ...and try to solve it together.

01:26:35: It's totally fine if reflect on what you did, it's important.

01:26:41: It is also fine to say oh maybe I was a white saver in this moment or maybe i did something that I wouldn't do now again with the political context and starting to understand.

01:26:57: but its not about beating anyone up.

01:27:01: if he want be active show solidarity.

01:27:05: thats already great start And yeah, we can move on together and change structures together.

01:27:14: Yes to totally agree with what Malika said.

01:27:21: I also cannot give a recap but for me it's very important that people understand the privilege they have again as white volunteers to have the privilege just, just to half day.

01:27:38: The number in mind that how many people can come to Europe or two?

01:27:42: You know about other countries like from Eastern countries too here to volunteers and How Many People Are Going To The Other Way Around Or At External Borders.

01:27:54: This Already Shows The Power There We Were.

01:27:57: It Was Just Mentioned Also In The Panel That How it's Difficult To Go Through All The Visas Process Also, if we ignore the cost and how many traveling?

01:28:07: And How many danger in all of this.

01:28:10: And also that other important part is like usually how it's being framed.

01:28:15: Usually when people from Eastern country they're coming for example to European Country by Institutes schools NGOs Churches I don't know whatever.

01:28:26: What do you see In them?

01:28:29: title its like cultural exchange or a learning program but as soon it goes the other way around, its teaching and powering building.

01:28:45: It's already there if you look at that or for people who are coming to Lesbos again I think i talk a lot about Leswesterne.

01:28:55: Yes, to coming here and seeing people in the move... To already recognise the power that they have?

01:29:06: And then at the end also just changing from their charity into real solidarity instead of treating it as simple and just trying how to cover all the problems or, just to solve it.

01:29:22: Let's go to the roots!

01:29:23: And let's solve that problem from there.

01:29:26: Let us fight for rights of people, freedom of movement... ...and put together all our efforts.

01:29:35: It is okay if you are making a mistake but we have done something wrong.

01:29:41: The moment when you notice this is important because I think Let's just be together and then to fight against the real movement, freedom of movement for everyone.

01:29:57: Okay that was a great last statement.

01:29:59: thank you Lila.

01:30:00: so learning and unlearning is a difficult process but stay fighting, continue being active!

01:30:10: And Thank You very much for participating in sharing your statements.

01:30:15: And goodbye also from me.