Season 2 · Episode 7 | Beyond Helping – Reinventing Solidarity.

00:00:18: Hello everyone and welcome to the seventh episode of The Change Of Perspective podcast, Beyond Helping Reinventing Solidarity.

00:00:25: In this episode we take a closer

00:00:27: look at what we often

00:00:28: call solidarity And question What lies behind it?

00:00:33: who is a part of the project's Uplike Perspectives from Global South, an online educational platform that

00:00:51: provides

00:00:51: materials for working with young people and adults.

00:00:55: The platform aims to strengthen the perspectives from the global south

00:00:58: within the global

00:00:59: learning and challenge dominant,

00:01:02: often

00:01:02: Eurocentric ways of seeing the

00:01:04: world.".

00:01:05: The conversation was led by our

00:01:06: colleague Evelyn

00:01:07: Cortes presented in English voice cover by Johanna Fuchs.

00:01:12: In this conversation, Healy

00:01:14: shares

00:01:14: her experience in political education work reflecting on power relations self-deception and the importance of unlearning.

00:01:23: She invites us to rethink solidarity not as a helping others but is deeper process questioning ourselves.

00:01:30: Stay with Us

00:01:31: and Live.

00:01:35: Thank You Mina And thank you Yealy for being here and sharing your time & perspective.

00:01:41: To begin, I would like to ask you if you have to explain it in one sentence.

00:01:47: What should we do?

00:01:48: What could you say?

00:01:51: Anti-colonial work and education.

00:01:57: Anti-Colonial educational work.

00:01:59: What motivated you to get involved with this project?

00:02:03: was there perhaps a moment or an experience that made me think... This needs change!

00:02:17: Yes, many experiences within

00:02:19: political work.

00:02:21: I participated in many organizations

00:02:23: which

00:02:23: i believe had good intentions but with very vulnerable points Regarding anti-racism

00:02:39: and what they call here

00:02:41: political work at eye level, meaning on equal terms among people from different regions of the world.

00:02:48: I saw that this equality

00:02:50: first of all does not exist

00:02:52: And secondly is not really practiced.

00:02:55: That always made me uncomfortable... ...and i think that's what drives me.

00:03:00: If we are going to say we're doing it then let us do in a way

00:03:05: which

00:03:05: is more real or radical.

00:03:10: And

00:03:18: Gili, why do you think it is important to change narratives?

00:03:26: It depends

00:03:27: on where we look from.

00:03:28: Seen here there's one answer, seen in another place... ...there's another and yet again a different one But let's speak from this place.

00:03:39: Here in the German society

00:03:40: where we live, specifically

00:03:42: in Berlin when

00:03:43: work.

00:03:44: changing narratives for me has to do with a fact that there is a lot of self-deception.

00:03:54: One of these self-disceptions Is the belief

00:03:57: That

00:03:57: This part Of The World Produces Answers For Other Parts That Supposedly

00:04:01: Like The Conditions To Create Them

00:04:03: or the idea that here human

00:04:05: rights are defended

00:04:06: and protected, whereas in other places they're not.

00:04:11: It is assumed we have answers to this system as well as structure – and elsewhere chaos and lack of perspectives

00:04:18: prevail.".

00:04:25: I believe our contribution on this part of the

00:04:28: world… And again

00:04:29: speaking specifically from Berlin... is to help people perceive how much of their self-image and the image others are far

00:04:37: from reality.

00:04:39: And how this has consequences, negative consequences for this place.

00:04:54: There's disconnection and a great deal ignorance about many things which leads decisions paths & positions

00:05:01: that are very

00:05:02: dangerous.

00:05:08: And I insist again, here in Berlin and Germany there have already been moments of history when self-deception and projecting onto others has led to serious

00:05:17: consequences.

00:05:23: So being able talk for example about human rights about this idea that

00:05:28: here

00:05:28: they are respected and therefore others can be taught,

00:05:32: seems

00:05:32: fundamental

00:05:33: to me.

00:05:34: Because

00:05:34: precisely on this issue there very strong contradictions

00:05:38: here.

00:05:47: That is why it's especially important to speak with young people

00:05:50: To

00:05:51: alert them and show

00:05:52: them

00:05:52: giving the possibility.

00:05:54: in future

00:05:55: they will be

00:05:56: much more attentive even to what happens inside their own homes.

00:06:02: Many people say that colonialism is over, but at Sudvike you show that it's still present in our ways of thinking for example.

00:06:11: So Jiri could You give us a clear example how these colonial logics are produced today in European education?

00:06:23: For example, a very typical way is simply not speaking about self-organization.

00:06:29: About initiatives?

00:06:30: About ways of dealing with problems?

00:06:33: About activism or about efforts to reorganize the world after all the consequences that colonialism and neocolonialism have left in the global south?

00:06:43: Here this practically not discussed It's not seen

00:06:47: it does not exist.

00:06:59: By forgetting all of this and continuing to teach a version of history that presents the society without mentioning the resistance of groups,

00:07:08: I wouldn't

00:07:08: say only from the south

00:07:10: because the South

00:07:10: is very broad but groups around the world including here that are constantly working to reorganize structures and create new ways for

00:07:19: people to live.

00:07:37: I am very careful not call this only activism or resistance.

00:07:42: It is that too.

00:07:43: But there are many forms from the everyday, small and playful

00:07:47: in which people

00:07:48: also shaping this reality

00:07:50: or trying to shape it

00:07:51: And these practices completely escape.

00:07:54: what's taught?

00:08:04: What is taught?

00:08:04: Is a world where people do not have power transform anything

00:08:09: except

00:08:09: for example

00:08:10: through

00:08:11: what the so-called globalist learning proposes,

00:08:15: making

00:08:15: conscious purchases and thereby washing their hands.

00:08:26: So self organization remains on another level especially that of vulnerable

00:08:30: groups

00:08:31: And in education this would be exemplary even though people could learn they also have power beyond whether to buy bananas or trousers.

00:08:41: I don't dismiss the value of that,

00:08:43: but

00:08:44: when we talk about this force people have in education especially teaching history something very important is left out.

00:09:03: How do teachers and students react to these perspectives from the global south?

00:09:15: Well, yes.

00:09:16: Once

00:09:16: again we question the term global

00:09:18: south but

00:09:19: I prefer to think about groups and regions that have been colonized And within those regions

00:09:25: people who have

00:09:26: historically made

00:09:27: more vulnerable

00:09:28: by consequences of

00:09:29: colonial

00:09:30: history.

00:09:31: Because talking about the Global

00:09:33: South

00:09:34: also carries

00:09:35: a small trap

00:09:36: It homogenizes.

00:09:38: It

00:09:38: frames one region of the world

00:09:40: against another, assuming

00:09:42: that wealth is concentrated

00:09:43: in one and poverty in other.

00:09:46: And we know it's not a case.

00:09:49: The complexities are far greater.

00:10:06: But listening to people from these vulnerable groups who oppose the consequences or continuities of colonialism is very important for many teachers, because they are firsts that need to relearn and unlearn.

00:10:19: They're in a process of educating themselves first.

00:10:28: What I have perceived it's that people tend welcome this knowledge.

00:10:32: To begin with there's lot gratitude from people who write to us or tell us how valuable it is, to come into contact with narratives for which they were distanced in their own education.

00:10:43: They also recognize how difficult it is to access them and we recognize this too.

00:10:50: There's one of the reasons that project exists – search engines whether because language or algorithms do not make these

00:11:09: actions

00:11:10: easy.

00:11:11: So

00:11:11: when we bring them closer to an active person, a self-organized community or group that resists regarding practices they may have heard of in exoticised ways but never through

00:11:22: first hand

00:11:23: knowledge people appreciate it and want their students know about this too.

00:11:30: So

00:11:41: we have very positive responses from people.

00:11:44: I think, really want to get out of the bubbles they live in and many today are aware how harmful it is even for themselves or the planet.

00:11:55: I

00:11:56: believe some of them genuinely desire and appreciate this access to information that we provide, in the way we provided.

00:12:09: Is there an anecdote or a moment you remember when someone changed their ways of seeing things perhaps into one activity's resources?

00:12:25: Yes, there are several moments.

00:12:27: Very beautiful ones even unforgettable.

00:12:30: I wouldn't necessarily say they changed

00:12:32: someone's entire world view.

00:12:35: that could be too much but They

00:12:37: do shift their perception

00:12:38: of certain things.

00:12:44: For example

00:12:44: i'm thinking about a class in Neukölln with young adults where we worked on the topic Of the genocide in Namibia and this so-called reparations.

00:12:54: We held a workshop

00:12:55: over the course of her full morning and what was very striking, Was this sense of indignation among some other participants.

00:13:03: They were not

00:13:03: familiar

00:13:04: with that topic even though they had studied German colonialism but only very superficially.

00:13:29: They had no real understanding of what these so-called reparations meant.

00:13:34: And their reaction was a strong but also very thoughtful and solidaristic indignation.

00:13:40: It wasn't aimless anger, But one filled with questions.

00:13:44: Why was I never told this?

00:13:46: why

00:13:47: don't i have

00:13:48: access to this information?

00:13:50: This is unjust,

00:13:51: this cannot

00:13:52: simply be accepted.

00:13:59: These were young people recognizing the injustice produced both by the German stage and the Namibian state And understanding how victims of genocide, the Herrero and Nama are still placed in a position where there's no real reparation.

00:14:33: They were also able to understand the history that led to genocide through the voice of an activist from a foundation directly connected with affected communities.

00:14:42: It was opportunity, I think for this group.

00:14:46: You could see it in their faces, and reactions that

00:14:49: what happened was

00:14:50: not just a historical fact but something they could deeply empathize with.

00:15:02: This has also happened to adults who teach us When we present the project.

00:15:07: many people acknowledge there are things they simply do not know And for me this is already very significant that adults in this predominantly white German society, where people often position themselves as knowledgeable can say I didn't know this.

00:15:26: I think that due to the way many people are socialized.

00:15:29: it is not easy to admit no one.

00:15:32: perhaps it is perceived a weakness and speculating but that's an impression i have on many situations.

00:15:45: So when someone says, I didn't know this or...

00:15:49: ...I had never heard

00:15:49: about it.

00:15:50: Or….

00:15:51: …I had no idea that was like

00:15:53: this.".

00:15:54: I find that very

00:15:55: moving and meaningful.

00:15:57: We have heard these more than once for example in relation to the Haitian revolution of genocide in Namibia Topics where resistance is often absent from how history has

00:16:07: taught

00:16:23: And that is where something like a transformation can take place.

00:16:26: When a person suddenly becomes aware of the world they had never seen before and have not been exposed to, I think it can open a door…and yes...I believe some doors are opened!

00:17:01: Yes, decolonizing.

00:17:04: We are constantly sitting with these words trying to understand what they really mean.

00:17:09: It's a very big word.

00:17:10: As I mentioned before, i think what we try to do is more accurately described as anti-colonial work encouraging people take critical stance towards colonialism and recognize it as the genocidal practice of dispossession not something relative or even positive.

00:17:36: Decolonizing

00:17:37: is a much more complex process, and I don't think it can happen in single encounter with the class.

00:17:43: What can

00:17:43: happen however

00:17:45: for people who come from regions of world that have been colonized especially groups directly affected or made vulnerable?

00:17:54: There can be a process that feels more decolonizing, in the sense they begin to perceive themselves and to be perceived by others.

00:18:20: We also work with processes that aim to ensure people do not experience what they are learning as disconnected from their own realities, but instead engage in it on an emotional level.

00:18:34: A

00:18:45: podcast for example is based on interviews with people

00:18:49: who are actively

00:18:50: involved in self-organized community work.

00:18:53: They speak and the first person about what's happening, how they came to do it, what motivates them.

00:19:04: The videos are animations designed to be accessible to younger audiences.

00:19:25: The podcasts on the other

00:19:27: hand, generally

00:19:28: intended for older students young adults or the adults who accompany them

00:19:33: teachers and facilitators.

00:19:44: In addition, our workshops include a range of processes such as theater creative writing exercises cooking in other words practices that move away from the traditional classroom format.

00:20:09: Adiz decolonial process.

00:20:12: I wouldn't necessarily call them.

00:20:15: As I said, that would also

00:20:16: require deeper transformations within the educational system itself.

00:20:21: Decolonial is a very big word and i feel it sometimes being appropriated and used too easily.

00:20:36: What we always try to make clear Is just as there have been colonial processes of dispossession People are also organizing themselves and taking action.

00:20:47: They're not sitting and waiting for someone from here to send them five euros, nor they pass it as often portrayed.

00:20:56: on the contrary

00:20:57: there is a great deal already happening.

00:21:00: much that can be learned from it

00:21:07: And this

00:21:08: implies a reversal of who gives what.

00:21:13: Overall, this time that Südblikke has been working what do you think have been your greatest impact or achievement so far?

00:21:27: Südblikke began

00:21:28: after the pandemic

00:21:30: although

00:21:30: during the

00:21:31: pandemic it already existed as a process within another structure.

00:21:35: At that time we were starting to

00:21:37: create movement bring people from global south into classrooms.

00:21:42: We invited migrants living in Berlin to speak with groups.

00:21:46: For example, we had people from Bangladesh who were active on environmental issues.

00:21:52: This was already a step towards what are doing today.

00:22:12: When the pandemic

00:22:13: arrived,

00:22:13: this was no longer possible and their work shifted into the podcast format.

00:22:18: We began producing

00:22:19: podcasts together with people in different countries of a so-called global South many of whom were in situations where they had to survive while also dealing with inequalities rooted in colonialism.

00:22:32: They could tell us what was happening And how they were navigating these conditions.

00:22:36: This is our first series of podcasts emerged.

00:23:01: When the pandemic situation

00:23:02: improved,

00:23:03: we already had a clear sense

00:23:04: that wanted to continue in this direction.

00:23:08: Our first in-person meetings, literally without masks were also moments to reflect on and shape Südblikke as a project.

00:23:30: As for achievements there are many because Südblikke also builds on experiences that existed before it formally became what it is today.

00:23:40: We have managed to bring together perspectives from many parts of the world on our platform, we've learned a great deal!

00:24:07: For me,

00:24:08: for example being able to engage with the Haitian revolution through the voice of a history teacher in Port-au-Prince and make this topic more tangible both ourselves

00:24:18: or others

00:24:19: is major achievement.

00:24:21: In educational

00:24:22: terms it's

00:24:23: very meaningful

00:24:24: although –to be clear–it

00:24:27: does not change anything for Haiti.

00:24:31: But it does have an impact on people who previously had little or no access to this information, and who have expressed their appreciation.

00:24:40: I myself had many gaps in my knowledge even about our own region where these histories are

00:24:46: also often

00:24:47: omitted.".

00:25:05: So

00:25:05: one of our achievements is that we have built a platform with considerable reach.

00:25:10: We have a podcast series, videos and managed to reach different audiences.

00:25:48: Another important achievement is maintaining a consistently critical position.

00:25:53: We question

00:25:54: terms such as global south,

00:25:56: global

00:25:57: learning

00:25:58: or

00:25:58: decolonization.

00:26:00: We always try to go further, to dig deeper and understand more.

00:26:05: That has been a key achievement in our own practices.

00:26:19: I

00:26:19: also believe that we contribute by helping others move beyond positions that may appear politically correct but are still superficial And it is important to say that we also have those contradictions.

00:26:33: We are not trying to be perfect,

00:26:34: but we

00:26:35: will contradict ourselves!

00:26:37: One of these contradictions for

00:26:38: example

00:26:39: in order to function...

00:26:41: ...we need funding

00:26:43: and the funding sometimes comes from certain institutions.

00:26:46: We operate within a capitalistic logic But still try to question or deepen our critique.

00:26:55: In this sense there has been many achievements

00:27:07: and we were able to learn more about criticism.

00:27:26: Yes, I have a lot of achievements.

00:27:33: Yes, language is a tool but it also is weapon.

00:27:38: It produces many things –

00:27:39: images,

00:27:40: beliefs, appropriations and false ideas about practices

00:27:45: because

00:27:45: often tries to describe them.

00:27:53: Perhaps we need to describe practices more as they actually are and ask what is truly possible through them.

00:28:00: Sometimes we become too comfortable with

00:28:02: language, and

00:28:03: terminology is constantly changing which is interesting especially today when these shifts happen very

00:28:10: quickly.

00:28:11: there's a continuous mutation in how we name things.

00:28:19: Naming is important but also

00:28:22: why things

00:28:22: are named

00:28:23: the way they.

00:28:24: Often,

00:28:25: concepts emerge from academia

00:28:27: and are

00:28:27: later adopted in political

00:28:29: work.

00:28:29: But

00:28:30: over time they become empty.

00:28:32: They start being used very loosely for almost anything And then lose their political weight on the history

00:28:39: Because

00:28:39: words & concepts also have a history When they're used to describe processes

00:28:44: that aren't actually

00:28:45: those processes.

00:29:02: For me,

00:29:02: one way to clarify

00:29:04: what

00:29:04: I'm saying is look for synonyms.

00:29:07: To ask myself... Is there another word?

00:29:12: And often that makes things more concrete because we realize They do not really reflect what we mean.

00:29:35: For example, when we speak of the global south We are trying to define certain poles But we may also be reproducing with different words an older world view First second third word

00:29:48: developed and developing

00:29:50: countries

00:29:51: And

00:29:51: so on.

00:29:52: These are categories that may have fallen out of use, but we continue to reproduce them through new vocabulary.

00:30:00: It's similar how it stopped using the term race and began with ethnicity while the underlying mental image remained the same.

00:30:21: So we need to ask ourselves, when are truly changing our thinking?

00:30:25: And when were simply changing words.

00:30:27: Because if you're still talking about the same thing... ...we're still thinkin' the same way just using more mainstream language.

00:30:44: In the case of the Global South and the Global North It is important to recognize the complexities.

00:30:50: As migrants, for example we move between different contexts and see that precarity in poverty also exists.

00:30:57: in so-called Global North The consequences of colonialism are present here as well.

00:31:04: Think of Eastern Europe Migrant workers in precarious conditions Refugees living in camps.

00:31:20: At the same time, in so-called Global South there are extremely wealthy

00:31:24: elites.

00:31:25: Millionaires and largest states levels of wealth that sometimes even surpass what we see here.

00:31:32: So realities far more complex than a simple division of

00:31:35: the world.

00:31:40: That is why when we speak about global south I think it's important to specify who we are talking about, because they're also very

00:31:48: privileged people

00:31:49: there.

00:31:50: And the same applies with the Global North – which north are we referring?

00:32:07: The same applies for terms like

00:32:08: decolonization or

00:32:10: global learnings How willing are people

00:32:13: really to unlearn?

00:32:14: Because

00:32:15: genuine global learning would require deep, even radical unlearning.

00:32:20: Recognizing that much of what we have learned is not true.

00:32:30: It's not just about learning where chocolate comes from but about realizing And that involves questioning even very deep aspects of our worldview,

00:32:43: such as

00:32:43: beliefs,

00:32:44: religion

00:32:45: and ways of understanding the world.

00:32:51: I'm not sure people are truly willing to go through such a deep process.

00:33:01: At the same time within political education and activism there're specific codes in forms language often shaped by academia, which also create hierarchies.

00:33:13: This excludes people who do not have access to that language – I question that too!

00:33:18: To what extent?

00:33:19: in trying to be inclusive?

00:33:21: Do we end up excluding

00:33:23: others?".

00:33:33: Sometimes even forms of cancellation emerge because someone does not have access to that vocabulary, when perhaps they do not need

00:33:42: it.

00:33:43: So language is important but also important for understanding what some people

00:33:48: can speak in certain

00:33:49: ways and others cannot.

00:33:51: We must find a way to understand each other And in the end,

00:33:57: as with words like love

00:33:59: and many others.

00:34:00: The question

00:34:01: is

00:34:02: do we

00:34:02: restore their meaning or do we create new ones?

00:34:06: I had a very specific question but i think you already answered it just before.

00:34:11: towards the end It was about

00:34:13: what

00:34:14: really means using this terminology to decolonize the mind are not actually true, is globally related.

00:34:29: Would you be okay with me using that as your answer or how do say it?

00:34:37: Yes

00:34:38: I think for this part of the world decapitalizing

00:34:47: rather

00:34:47: than using other kinds of terminology.

00:34:50: This is a region that has been deeply shaped by historical processes since the Middle Ages,

00:34:56: feudalism

00:34:57: ,the transition to capitalism

00:34:58: and so

00:35:03: on.

00:35:07: So if we are going to use conceptual terms, de-patriarchalizing and decapitalizing life and thought would be more accurate starting points.

00:35:16: From there we need ask how this could actually be done?

00:35:20: And

00:35:20: even whether it is truly possible!

00:35:23: De-patrarchalising isn't simply about changing language or adjusting gendered expressions.

00:35:28: It's a much more complex task One that also involves us

00:35:33: those

00:35:33: of who understand ourselves as women

00:35:35: in a

00:35:36: deep process of reflection.

00:35:38: It

00:35:39: is not just about going out into the streets to demand women's rights, nor about an exclusionary feminism or about cancelling others.

00:35:58: Rather, de-patriarchalizing is project for different kind world one which we also stand up understanding that patriarchy affects everyone,

00:36:09: as well as nature.

00:36:20: These

00:36:20: are much deeper processes beyond women's rights which remain essential but pointing towards something broader

00:36:29: And that's

00:36:37: for decapitalizing?

00:36:39: Well,

00:36:40: I'll leave it to your imagination.

00:36:42: There

00:36:43: is a lot of work to be done!

00:36:46: Thank you Jilly.

00:36:47: and To begin wrapping up this interview in these final minutes What would you like a young or adult person in Europe to question after listening?

00:37:04: Well, I would like that person if there are white European persons.

00:37:08: I

00:37:08: am

00:37:08: imagining a certain profile

00:37:10: here

00:37:11: to question To what extent the disconnection caused by racism and colonialism in their own history affects them personally?

00:37:18: Affects Their Own Beings

00:37:31: And

00:37:31: from there, to recognize the urgency of engaging with it.

00:37:35: Not form a place of kindness or idea for saving others but understanding that first person they need take care

00:37:42: is themselves

00:37:44: because if they truly reflect on

00:37:46: them

00:37:46: also affected.

00:37:48: They are someone who's losing something through this disconnection.

00:37:59: As Toni Morrison said,

00:38:01: racism

00:38:02: is also a problem for white

00:38:03: people.

00:38:04: The consequences of colonialism

00:38:06: are their problems too in their own bodies and

00:38:09: self-image.

00:38:15: I

00:38:18: would like this person to realize that many things affect them that shape a distorted image of themselves

00:38:27: may come

00:38:27: from there.

00:38:29: That they are constantly competing,

00:38:31: that they're

00:38:31: not really able to listen...

00:38:33: ...that

00:38:33: look at themself in the mirror and see someone carrying pain whose origin

00:38:37: they no longer

00:38:38: understand but which is also connected with that legacy of white

00:38:51: supremacy.

00:38:58: I would hope they could take this on

00:39:00: as

00:39:01: their own process before wanting to go elsewhere,

00:39:04: for example in exchange trips.

00:39:06: To teach

00:39:06: something to

00:39:07: others

00:39:08: that they first do their work

00:39:10: ideally

00:39:11: within the community and family.

00:39:19: And if we don't change programming embedded into us This logic of white supremacy,

00:39:25: this fear.

00:39:26: If we do not confront it We risk repeating very tragic moments

00:39:30: in history.

00:39:40: I believe

00:39:41: there's a great responsibility

00:39:42: There But

00:39:43: i would also hope that this person can approach themselves with care

00:39:48: With love and patience.

00:39:50: Thank you so much Jilly.

00:39:52: And to close Is there a song, a phrase or perhaps an image that represents for you this idea of seeing the world from other perspectives?

00:40:02: From realities different than those experiences in places like Berlin and Germany more broadly.

00:40:19: Oh wow!

00:40:20: That's difficult

00:40:21: one.

00:40:22: There are so many phrases, so many images.

00:40:24: So many beautiful

00:40:25: films.

00:40:26: For example a film that comes to mind right

00:40:28: now is Machuca.

00:40:30: It's about a boy in Chile during the dictatorship.

00:40:34: I

00:40:34: really like it!

00:40:35: I don't know...it just an image came into

00:40:37: me at this moment.

00:40:41: And i'm

00:40:41: also thinking of a quote by Audre Lorde A black lesbian poet and activist who said that you cannot dismantle the master's house with a master's tools.

00:40:51: You

00:40:52: simply can not,

00:40:53: and need

00:40:53: different

00:40:54: tools.".

00:41:05: And for me it relates to language but also to the kinds of relationships

00:41:08: we build.

00:41:14: We

00:41:14: could talk about this for hours.

00:41:15: There's so much literature, so many authors So

00:41:18: many voices

00:41:19: women from so

00:41:20: many places But I think

00:41:22: that phrase captures it

00:41:23: beautifully.

00:41:24: It is almost an invitation to become a different kind of person From what we have been taught To be because the masters

00:41:31: tools in

00:41:32: other words The tools of those who dominate include arrogance

00:41:37: the

00:41:37: belief That we know better cancelling others dishonesty lack of care, competition

00:41:44: the

00:41:44: idea that we hold to truth.

00:41:46: We could make a long list and she wants us.

00:41:50: do not use those

00:41:51: tools

00:41:52: because with them we will be able to transform anything.

00:42:03: Thank you so much Gilly for joining us And thank you to everyone listening on the other side.

00:42:13: Don't miss our next episode, which will be the last one of this season!

00:42:18: This is Evelyn Ortiz and until next time...